Mildred Mann:
Perhaps two weeks before VE Day, in a small town with the advancing forces of the Winnipeg
Rifle. What was interesting was, one of the Dutch women, as they were coming through this
village, rushed out and gave Tony a coin which he has preserved, in gratitude for the
advancing Canadian forces. And he was so embarrassed to take it because these poor people
had nothing, but she insisted and with that came a mammoth squeeze. And it hasn't changed
one bit, judging from the celebrations. I' II show you the coin.

Lucy DeLuca:
How long were you in Holland when you were injured? Did you go right to England, Tony?

Tony Mann:
No, I was in hospital in Holland. And then from there I went to Basingstoke.

Lucy DeLuca:
But it was a gunshot wound, wasn't it Tony?

Tony Mann:
That's right.

Lucy DeLuca:
And did you know in the military hospital? Did they tell you anything? Did they say
anything about your injury?

Tony Mann:
No, not at the time. They didn't know what it was. When I came out of the hospital there,
I knew there was something wrong with my le~. Then when I came over to the plane, the girl
could not open my catheter there so she had to get the pilot to help. After that, I
remember going back to Basingstoke.

Lucy DeLuca:
Were you in Basingstoke long?

Tony Mann:
For quite a while before they brought me here to Deer Lodge. I was at Deer Lodge just
prior to VE Day.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
And at Basingstoke, did you meet Dr. Botterell?

Tony Mann:
Yes, I guess so. He was there at that point.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Do you remember anything about him?

Tony Mann:
Well, not too much. He did help aspirate blood from lungs. I had a lot of troubles.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
A suprapubic catheter?

Tony Mann:
Yes, but it was a different technique than was used later.

Lucy DeLuca:
Not the conventional way that we know.

Tony Mann:
No.

Lucy DeLuca:
It must have been a lot of discomfort too?

Tony Mann:
No.

Lucy DeLuca:
But spasms and other problems associated with it.

Tony Mann:
Yes, but also you get infections all through that. And for that, I stayed with the
suprapubic. I couldn't go out with that. Most of the fellows would get away from that. But
most of the time I stayed on with that because of the problems in there.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
When you were at Basingstoke, did they tell you what to expect when you came home?

Tony Mann:
No. I didn't know until I got to Deer Lodge with Dr. Paul Green. He was part of the team
of doctors in charge of my spinal chord injury. He explained the implications of my
disability, along with other team members.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
And when you came back, did you come over on a hospital ship?

Tony Mann:
Yes.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
And came straight to Winnipeg.

Tony Mann:
By train to Deer Lodge.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
This would be 1944, '45?

Tony Mann:
'45.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
And what was Deer Lodge like when you came? Were you there, Mildred?

Mildred Mann:
I was there interning for about three months.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
And how many veterans would there be with spinal cord injuries?

Mildred Mann:
About thirty-five, roughly.

Lucy DeLuca:
The nurse on the ward was a very special person. Her name was Daphne Gillis. Then came
"Frankie" Anderson.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Who was Andy, the nurse?

Lucy DeLuca:
Anderson. Her initials were F.E. Anderson, but everybody called her Andy. She was sort of
a nurse cum doctor. She was not only their nurse, but their nurturer, mother, and
everything.

Mildred Mann:
She kept him in line.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
This is the article in 1985. I haven't seen this. When you were working, Mildred, on the
ward, what did people say was going to happen to the soldiers with spinal cord injuries.

Mildred Mann:
Well, they didn't really have too much hope or optimism. They felt that they would be
short-term nursing care. Short-term because they were subject to so many infections. I
guess it was Eric Lyle who said, well we have to have some kind of life. And that, coupled
with Jean Keith, remember she was an army nurse, an army physio, actually. And when I had
come back to Deer Lodge, they had established a rehabilitation program for the paras.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
And that would be when?

Mildred Mann:
1946, I guess. The idea of exercise, retraining, walking had to be tried even though it
wasn't very practical.

Tony Mann:
At that time we didn't know. Leg braces were thought useful to have us simply "stand up".
So we went back to Ottawa.

Lucy DeLuca:
Because there weren't the wheelchairs? The big wooden chairs

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
No big wooden wheelchairs.

Tony Mann:
No, not for me, but this other fellow, Clarence Brooks, came over here first because he
was injured in England, in the air raids. It was the first time he got in to a chair
(wooden). And he came home with the chair. And there was no way to get in the house, no
one to look after him.

Lucy DeLuca:
No services, no support services.

Tony Mann:
Nothing at all. But even to get out of the house, he couldn't get through the door.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
And he would have had the wooden chair?

Tony Mann:
That's right.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
And when you came to Deer Lodge, would you have had your own wheelchair?

Tony Mann:
Yes, at that time.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Would every veteran on the ward have a wheelchair?

Tony Mann:
Not yet. Not at that time.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
So it was just a few?

Tony Mann:
Yes.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Were you an officer?

Tony Mann:
Yes.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Would that be why you would have had the wheelchair?

Mildred Mann:
I don't think that rank mattered too much. Although they did have a special ward section,
division, where the officers were housed. They kept that pretty much throughout the entire
time. Tony was there.

Tony Mann:
At the beginning there was Rod Beattie, for example, in a separate ward. After that, they
put us S.C.I.'s together.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
I interviewed Len Robichaud and he told me it was the same at St-Anne's. There was a wing
for officers and then there was a ward.

Tony Mann:
That's how it started out. Rod was injured on D-Day, he was shot. Also, at that time, they
had some trouble with his bladder.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
So they just catheterized him?

Tony Mann:
No, it was like a needle. It came over there and it was hollow, but you couldn't leave it
like that. But that's how he got there.

Mildred Mann:
But when Rod came back to Deer Lodge, as I understand it, he was just ~eft on one of the
wards and just treated as a bed patient. There were looking after his care and not doing
anything active for him. Trying to keep him out of trouble and that's all. But when this
next batch of veterans came, the next batch of paraplegics, it was through their efforts
and they banded together and said "let's live with what we have, let's make the most of
it, and try to carve out a life for ourselves". And that's when Rod was drawn into this
group.

Lucy DeLuca:
And it was just the way they talked. Just like they mentioned Eric Lyle and Tony, starting
to talk, there's got to more to it than just laying in bed.

Mildred Mann:
It started with a little social club. And to begin with, more training through physio and
the strengthening of the upper extremities, they were looking now in terms of having their
own cars. They could get out of the hospital for a social event. And of course they always
had various events where the civilians would come and take them out.

Tony Mann:
The first time that I remember here, we made a ramp for ourselves. And eventually the
doctor wouldn't let us use it because we were going out all the time and they couldn't rmd
us, out to the local pub. [laughter]

Lucy DeLuca:
Mildred, when you said they started training upper extremities, was something that you
just intuitively did, or was that something you were learning?

Mildred Mann:
We were learning how to do that.

Lucy DeLuca:
But there was nothing written that you could go to text books and say this is what needs
to happen. You were just working with the fellows?

Mildred Mann:
That's right. Actually, they were so keen on walking with braces that we had to develop
some upper arm strength so that they could use crutches. Sometimes it was discipline too,
because it would be so easy to lie in bed. But in this way we could establish a program
where they were up and had to be somewhere by eight o'clock.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
And in that program, would you get dressed or would you stay in hospital gowns?

Mildred Mann:
Depends on the routine, they were wearing fatigues. They would have very comfortable P .J.
bottoms but they would have a shirt.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
And what about going to the dining room? Where would you have your meals?

Tony Mann:
In the ward they devised a dining area in the balcony so the would have to come to the
table, rather than bed.

Mildred Mann:
That was established later too, where they had the balcony turned into a dining room.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
But at the beginning, it would be like a hospital ward, but later ...

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
And at this time, did you hear about what was going on in Toronto, at Lyndhurst? Had you
heard of that?

Tony Mann:
Yes. We talked about that at Deer Lodge.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Did you go to Toronto at all?

Mildred Mann:
Yes, by train. We went out for a hockey game, Maple Leafs, so Conn Smythe was a great
supporter of C.P.A., and of course in the Leafs' organization.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Would that would have been '46?

Mildred Mann:
I don't know what year that was? Probably 1946. Does it say in the album? This picture is
where they were brace walking. We would conduct classes outdoors.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Is this you? When I trained, we still wore white uniforms too.

Mildred Mann:
This is one of their social outings.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
I've seen this. This picture was in Caliper. Is this you?

Mildred Mann:
Yes. But somewhere I thought you had a picture of... This is a picture of a fabulous
Indian Princess who thought Tony was the most, until I told her the truth. These are some
of the activities that we would plan for them. The physio evolved from keeping the joints
immobilizing to going out. I thought we had a picture of Tony boarding the train. When he
went to Toronto, he had to be boarded through the window of the train.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
And when you were on the train, did someone travel with you, an orderly or someone? How
did you get there?

Tony Mann:
I went out there with Dr. Green and Hank Luten, a para-amputee. And we went to Maple Leaf
Gardens.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Conn Smythe was an early board member of the association.

Tony Mann:
Oh yes, that's why. That's why. It would be nice to get to see a hockey game. And I talked
to Dr. J ousse. I also talked with John Counsell.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
When did you meet John Counsell. Did you meet him in Manitoba? Did he come out to
Winnipeg?

Tony Mann:
I met him a few times in Toronto and then he came out here. l\1M:: He was actually here to
help Tony to establish the Manitoba Division.

Lucy DeLuca:
Which was first called the Central-Western because it encompassed Alberta, Saskatchewan
and Thunder Bay, didn't it? l\1M:: The first part covered the northern, Thunder Bay area,
and Saskatchewan and Alberta. What I thought was so funny, on his first trip to Winnipeg,
he was so well rehabilitated, that he came only using his crutches and braces.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
This was John Counsell? So he didn't use the chair? l\1M:: He didn't use the chair and it
was just an agonizing trip for him. He was totally exhausted.

Lucy DeLuca:
Was this his choosing or the chairs weren't that available yet?

Mildred Mann:
I think he was trying to prove a point. Didn't you have your initial meeting scheduled
somewhere at a hotel?

Tony Mann:
Yes, in the lobby of a hotel.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
So he didn't come to Deer Lodge, you met him in a hotel?

Tony Mann:
Yes, at first.

Lucy DeLuca:
Was he able to stay in the hotel or did you have to fmd him other accommodations?

Mildred Mann:
We had to imd alternative accommodations.

Tony Mann:
At Fort Garry, but he had to go in the back way because of the front stairs. With the
chair, we had to go through the kitchen, past all the garbage.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
So in those days, you went to the back, through the garbage area, through the kitchen, to
the freight elevator.

Mildred Mann:
But you had to go down a huge ramp, which was rme if you could hang on. But you also had
to go up the ramp.

Lucy DeLuca:
It was just like where the trucks and trolleys went through and then you had to go through
all the mess.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Now was he travelling alone when he came, John Counsell?

Tony Mann:
Yes, I think so. He was at that time.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
But he didn't bring his wheelchair?

Tony Mann:
No, not to meetings. But he had the chair at the hotel.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Why didn't he use a wheelchair?

Mildred Mann:
Because he was supposed to be a perfect example of rehabilitation.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
And that was walking, not using a wheelchair.

Mildred Mann:
That's right. And that was to get away from the wheelchair. Over time, we accepted that
walking was not practical for spinal cord injuries. By the time you got from Point A to
Point B, you'd be so exhausted that you couldn't possibly conduct any business.

Lucy DeLuca:
Or you'd fall and hurt yourself.

Mildred Mann:
That's right. It just wasn't a practical option.

Lucy DeLuca:
But they just did it automatically. They measure you for braces. You stood up on them. I
remember you saying that to me. I could stand up on them but I couldn't go anywhere.

Tony Mann:
When I started, my braces were up to the waist. My lesion is higher, T-2. I had to walk
around with these. You and I worked at it for a while for nothing really. And now I have
trouble with arthritis because of all that.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
When did you leave Deer Lodge?

Tony Mann:
I was working there.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
You started the Association in the Lodge?

Tony Mann:
We had offices there. When we first started out, they had wanted to give us an arrangement
there, where we would all live together in one place.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Was there a fellow there named Lorne Cotsford?

Lucy DeLuca:
His name was Lorne, but everyone called him Bing.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Did you live with him?

Tony Mann:
No, I lived with Clarence Brooks. We said that's not the way we wanted to live in
inaccessible places. So then we got houses, war-time houses. They made us a ramp to get in
there.

Lucy DeLuca:
Is that the house on Logan?

Tony Mann:
Yes.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Was that close to Deer Lodge?

Tony Mann:
No. But I was driving, and this was a new thing.

Mildred Mann:
The automatic transmission hadn't been invented then, so they had a system of vacuum-
action controls. The system took up almost the entire trunk of the car. And so you had a
vacuum release of the clutch plus the brake and the accelerator.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
And who would put that in?

Mildred Mann:
The Ford Company was very, very good to the veterans. Did they do that gratis?

Tony Mann:
I think so.

Mildred Mann:
Yes, if they bought a Ford car, they would put that in.

Lucy DeLuca:
And did they do this here in Winnipeg, in their service place?

Tony Mann:
Yes. The same man would do it.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
He would do it for all the veterans?

Tony Mann:
That's right. It was hard to work this out, but he knew how to do it, to get underneath,
work it out. But there was trouble there. In and out, that's all you could do. But I
wanted to drive slowly. So I made an arrangement there to put something underneath there,
to push in. We made this thing out of metal that helped get me in and out. If I was in
trouble, it would help me get out of the car with the snow.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Oh, to go back and forth, so if you got stuck on the ice, you could get the car out?

Tony Mann:
That's right. John Dehring, who got married, drove by strapping his feet to the pedals and
pushing his feet.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Somebody in British Columbia that I was interviewing, Peter Hardcastle, he was telling me
that he used to use a can that they would tie onto the clutch and then a broomstick. This
was in the late 1940's. Can I ask you, when you were in Deer Lodge and just after, what
was it like to go out in Winnipeg using a wheelchair?

Tony Mann:
The first time we went out to a restaurant, the newspaper came because they had never seen
so many people in wheelchairs before.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
So the newspaper made a big to-do about it?

Tony Mann:
Yes, that's right.

Mildred Mann:
But I think people locally, and this is what made it so easy for the veterans actually,
they still had a shiny aura around them. These were veterans that had given their
sacrifice for these people and people were very kind. There were several families that
would actually plan and organize activities, garden parties with the veterans coming in as
their guests.

Tony Mann:
We would go to the air force base where we had many social events.

Lucy DeLuca:
That's right. The building was huge, accessible, as well as the washrooms.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
So that continued a long time, going to the air force base.

Tony Mann:
We did, yes. I remember the first time going out with the chair ... [end of side 1, tape
1]... the first time we went there, I fell over, all full of snow. Fellow came over,
picked me up, carried me all the way in and then brought the chair in. A lot of people and
a lot of help.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
When you were starting, one of the things I noticed in Caliper, was a lot of discussion
about going back to work, trying to find jobs. How did that happen here?

Tony Mann:
Clarence Brooks tried working at home first, then as a taxi dispatcher out in the
community. Other men worked in insurance sales, also watch repair.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
How did that come at home, watch repair?

Tony Mann:
We had fellows there to help us through service clubs, to show how, to get tools and so
on.

Mildred Mann:
But I think that started on the ward, where you had the watch repair course. A technician
would come out for anyone who was interested in that line of work. That was already
started while in hospital.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
And was that seen as a good occupation, something you could do while sitting down.

Tony Mann:
A few fellows did it.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
I read about Eric Lyle in Dryden. Did he do watchmaking?

Tony Mann:
He started out as a watchmaker, then opened a jewellery store.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
That might have been very early. So it sounds like some people did watchmaking, but not a
lot.

Mildred Mann:
No. There were two or three. Clarence Brooks became a cab dispatcher.

Lucy DeLuca:
They might have started in a sedentary hand thing, but then they evolved into things that
were of more interest.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Of more interest to them?

Lucy DeLuca:
Yes. And opportunity of course.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Somebody in Caliper did egg grading.

Tony Mann:
That's Orville Olsen.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
But he didn't say with that?

Lucy DeLuca:
He stayed with that for quite a while, but then he came to the Association, he and Rod
Beattie . .As it expanded, Tony asked them to come and work with him. Rod came first as
the accountant and Orville started as a Counsellor, well he was sort of a jack-of-
alltrades. He built, he advocated, you name it, he did the whole bit.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
When you were trying to find jobs for people, veterans, what response did you get in the
community?

Lucy DeLuca:
Did Veterans' Affairs offer training?

Mildred Mann:
If you approached them, they would assist you, but you had to approach them.

Tony Mann:
There was an arrangement there. There was a board there and employment was available.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
But there wasn't someone working with you, a special counsellor?

Tony Mann:
No. They didn't feel that you should go to work. The first time we had an adoption,
Mildred and I worked pretty hard to work things out with Dr. Schwartz. He said he could do
a lot things but we couldn't help you with that. Rod and Edie were the first successful
adoption.

Lucy DeLuca:
That was quite a coup legally because it was difficult because of his disability.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
What year would that be?

Tony Mann:
Probably 1954 or 1955. And It was difficult, but he was able to walk a bit. They, the
adoption agency, didn't know he was a paraplegic. He had to go back again and again. It
was the same thing with Mildred and I. It was a long time to work this out. When we first
started out, the doctors said we wouldn't live long enough to be proper parents.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
When you were going out in the community, you would go in the back door to get the freight
elevator, and I've beard other veterans talking about learning to jump curbs with your
wheelchair, did you ever ask in those days that they put ramps in for you?

Tony Mann:
We would try and work it out and to get this in the building codes but we would talk to
them and try and get them, but it took a while to do that.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Would people ask for a ramp into a business or a workplace?

Tony Mann:
Some to go to work, to a hotel, a restaurant and it's worthwhile. There were some people
who said we don't see them.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Because they couldn't go out into the community?

Lucy DeLuca:
It was a catch-22. You couldn't go out because there wasn't ramps or accessibility and
they said they didn't want to put them in because they didn't see anybody out.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Back then, in the late 1940's, in Caliper, there's really not much discussion about ramps
and changing the environment. It seemed to be a lot more about the person adapting to the
environment. Would that be the case? Let me phrase it another way. In the late 'S0's and
early '60's, I found articles that you were writing about changing the building codes and
trying to put in ramps. Before the late 1950's, nobody seems to write about changing the
environment.

Tony Mann:
That's right. When I first came to Ottawa, I was there but they weren't doing anything.

Lucy DeLuca:
You went to the research council in the Building Standards Committee, they asked you to be
a part of it and that's maybe when an awareness started to develop. Didn't you go to the
first meetings and you couldn't even go in the building? There was a flight of stairs to
the room where the meeting was being held.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
And this would have been in the early 1960's?

Mildred Mann:
That would have been in the early '60's, I think.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
So it's really not until the 1960's when people started to look at the design of
buildings.

Tony Mann:
Yes, that's right.

Lucy DeLuca:
Didn't you go to Ottawa in 1963? When Tony went, he ended up being a member on that
committee. That was the select committee. They called it the Associate Committee to the
National Building Code and Tony was on it for quite a number of years with some other
architects.

Tony Mann:
Yes.

Lucy DeLuca:
Then after that, I think they had more input from the disabled community, but Tony was the
first.

Mildred Mann:
They had asked Tony to be the Chairman of that committee.

Lucy DeLuca:
And that was to bring some of the things into the building code, to make it legal. But
that was only minimal, wasn't it Tony.

Tony Mann:
Very little. But slowly we started.

Mildred Mann:
But before that, you had worked out a program where you had volunteers assessing buildings
locally. You actually did a survey.

Tony Mann:
That was quite an undertaking, but it worked.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Is that around still, that survey?

Lucy DeLuca:
They would have it at the office. It was a group of volunteers, and it was all volunteers
and we broke the city into areas. And then within those areas, there were restaurants and
hotels, then we had forms and went out and surveyed them. We measured doorways, washrooms,
telephone booths, etc. We did parking, if the parking was suitable, adjacent or two blocks
over. We put all of this on these forms and then from the forms, the material was all put
into a compiled document and then from that, the office started to get to the city saying
this is what we need. We've got buildings that no one can access. Around this time curb
ramping started. It was a growth from that survey. We had statistics and documentation to
back up what we were asking the city.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
And when would the survey be?

Lucy DeLuca:
'67, '66, '67.

Mildred Mann:
It would have been before Canada's anniversary in '67.

Lucy DeLuca:
About '65, I think. The survey took several years.

Mildred Mann:
But it not only showed the need and what was available in the city, it also made the
patrons and the owners of the various establishments aware of what the problem was. And I
think awakening them to the problem.

Lucy DeLuca:
We did medical clinics, libraries, we did a cross section of all the things. We had
medical clinics that wouldn't even let us in because nobody in a wheelchair came to their
clinic. This was the kind of thing you got from people so you were able to make them aware
that people would like to come. This is the way it threaded through all the different
things.

Mildred Mann:
It was a great educational tool.

Lucy DeLuca:
I think for a lot of the volunteers too. We had lots of volunteers.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
And why did you do the survey?

Lucy DeLuca:
It was Tony's idea that we needed all this information. We wouldn't get anything to happen
without being backed up with statistics and tell us why.

Mildred Mann:
And the fact that you needed access.

Lucy DeLuca:
And that we didn't want to stay home. It's our inalienable right to go out and be a part
of the community.

Mildred Mann:
And the fact that providing accessibility for chairs did not take away from people who
were on foot. When Tony was working with Mary Liz Bayer for the new concert hall, the
ramps were instituted and there was seatig provided for the handicapped. And now, if you
try to get space on the ramp you can't, because everybody is heading for the ramps because
it's easier. So you really are fighting for access. But the fact that it is available and
it's being used. If a handicapped person isn't there, it's still open for the person on
the street. You are not detracting from anybody.

Tony Mann:
It took a long time to get that idea across.

Lucy DeLuca:
The same thing with the washroom, to make a cubicle with a wider door. It wasn't going to
make that solely for wheelchairs, but what it did was allow a person with a wheelchair to
use it and when they weren't using it, other people could. And that was a hard sell
because you couldn't convince them that other people would use it.

Mildred Mann:
And now, the dipped curb is just a matter of fact.

Lucy DeLuca:
In this city now, curb ramping is in the code. If there's new street construction, that's
just a given, the ramping will take place.

Tony Mann:
Have you seen this picture?

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
I've seen that, yes. That's Mr. Large.

Tony Mann:
Yes, Ray Large.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
What do you remember about him?

Lucy DeLuca:
He was the only paraplegic vet from the first war that survived.

Tony Mann:
Yes. He's living with a nurse there, living across from Deer Lodge.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
There is something about him in Caliper. And I think in Caliper it says he moved across
into a house.

Lucy DeLuca:
The street is right across from the hospital.

Tony Mann:
If he needed a little help he was fme. He ramped his house. He came back after 1918 and he
just went to a home. And his nurse helped him with his living and then he married her. The
first time he used a ramp, it was to go into the Legion. He got the ramp built because he
wanted to get into the Legion because he was a part of it.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
How long did he live, do you remember?

Mildred Mann:
He lived to be 65, didn't he?

Tony Mann:
I don't remember but he lived quite a while.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
And the wheelchair that he had, this was a levered one that he pushed with the levers.
When you got the new wheelchairs, did he get one as well?

Tony Mann:
I guess later on he did. But he used that all the time to go to the park. I used a chair
like that when I went to Camp Morton to visit my parents.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
In the '60's, there were some articles that you wrote about wheelchair sports. And I think
in Manitoba there was a debate about whether there should be wheelchair sports.

Tony Mann:
Yes, should we or shouldn't we.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Can you talk about that a bit. I thought the article was very good, I agreed with it.

Tony Mann:
I had to go to Thunder Bay to talk about wheelchair sports but I said that I wasn't sure
that I was the right person. But I went and we talked about it and they did very well with
that.

Lucy DeLuca:
The Pan-Am games were the biggest thrust of all.

Tony Mann:
And then there was Montreal, the symposium.

Mildred Mann:
That was the biggest joke of all because he was asked to come and give a paper on
recreation. This was a fellow who never had any time for recreation.

Tony Mann:
I'm not sure that's true.

Mildred Mann:
He never recreated.

Lucy DeLuca:
The bigger thrust was when the Pan-Am Games came and wheelchair sports were given an
integral part of it.

Mildred Mann:
Tony always felt that wheelchair sports were not for him but that didn't mean that it
wasn't for everyone.

Lucy DeLuca:
Actually there's some pictures of the gang at Deer Lodge on the lawn doing some archery
and things.

Mildred Mann:
That was more physio and OT.

Tony Mann:
This picture was before I had an office there, lying in bed. I had a typewriter and did
all my letters there.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Who's in this picture?

Tony Mann:
Well, that's me.

Lucy DeLuca:
That's fishing, when you're family came up.

Mildred Mann:
And he actually did catch something.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
What year would that have been?

Mildred Mann:
During the '60's.

Lucy DeLuca:
Wheelchair sports really took off in '67, but there wasn't much organized before that.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
In the article, when you wrote about wheelchair sports, you were against it and as I
understood the article ...

Tony Mann:
No, no. Not against it. There's other things you have to do right away, first. There's
lot's to do beforehand.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
I thought from the way you wrote, you also shared the ideas of John Counsell and Ken
Langford, because they weren't too keen on wheelchair sports.

Tony Mann:
That's right.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
It seemed to me that they were keener on just going back and doing the things you wanted
to do with everybody else.

Tony Mann:
That's true. The first time we got to Deer Lodge in Manitoba, there was nothing to do. But
in Toronto, the fellows, especially John, liked horse racing. And he didn't need anything
else.

Mildred Mann:
And I think too, that was a type of recreation and every person should follow his own
pursuit.

Lucy DeLuca:
I think it was a case of there was so much to be done.

Mildred Mann:
And sports might have seemed a bit frivolous.

Lucy DeLuca:
And not this group thing. And we had a lot of problems here because we had a recreational
group, called Sports and Recreation, and the recreational people who weren't
competitive, went to play cards and so on. And then what happened, and what's happened now, is there is no organized
wheelchair recreation. It's all become competitive sports. Which is too bad. And I think
maybe Tony saw that early on because that's what's evolved now.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
I think you did. That article you wrote seemed to say that a lot.

Lucy DeLuca:
And that's what's happened. It's become so competitive. And somebody who just wants to
work out, it's not easy. They don't have time for you. It's gotten like any organized
sport. It's become, I hate to say big money, but it is because they receive grants. The
wheelchair sports groups are all over the world. They go to the Olympics. They have their
own para-Olympics. And they have their own events that go on in Canada and abroad, as you
know. But I think that's what these men probably saw.

Mildred Mann:
They were really looking after the needs and they didn't think that sports at this time
was really needed.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
During the 1940's and 1950's, how much communication would you have across the country,
between Toronto and Montreal?

Tony Mann:
All the way across to Halifax.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Would you travel between?

Tony Mann:
Quite a bit, yes.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
And what was that like, travelling?

Tony Mann:
With the plane it was fine. But before that, with the train, it was tough. The first time
flying, the chair was too wide and wouldn't fit through the door. But eventually, they
made chairs to get into the plane and doorways that were narrower.

Mildred Mann:
But originally when you travelled, you had to enter through the window of the train
compartment. But on the plane, they had to be loaded in with the food supplies. They went
up on the hoist. But the airline service was really very great. They were kind and
sympathetic and they never made you feel, at least this is what Tony encountered, they
never made you feel that you were a burden to them.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
And this was in the past?

Mildred Mann:
Yes.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
This was in the 1940's and 50's.

Mildred Mann:
Yes, when we first started travelling by plane.

Tony Mann:
Can I go back a little bit. Before I could do my suprapubic and leg bags there, I used to
have two bags there in case there was trouble. When we went to Bermuda, the first time on
the plane, we had a bottle, and I used to hold it here and put it in the chair and Mildred
had to throw it out.

Mildred Mann:
I don't know when that service changed. Tony doesn't travel now.

Lucy DeLuca:
It changed when I started travelling. Very badly.

Mildred Mann:
Was that because they had to look after more?

Lucy DeLuca:
I don't know. I was denied travel. They just didn't want to look after me. If you didn't
travel with someone, they just didn't want to take responsibility. I went through a lot of
that.

Mildred Mann:
So it was really the personnel that had changed.

Lucy DeLuca:
They had no backup.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
What years would that have been?

Lucy DeLuca:
I started travelling right away. The 'SO's.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
I wonder if it was because you weren't a veteran?

Lucy DeLuca:
Well, how would they know that?

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
You were a woman.

Lucy DeLuca:
Well, that's true. But even fellows were denied. John Lane, the previous C.P.C. Manitoba
Executive Director, was denied passage when he worked for the federal government. He tried
to get on a plane in Ottawa and they wouldn't take him. There were cases documented. :

Mildred Mann:
We never encountered that.

Lucy DeLuca:
Agnes tried to leave Regina and they wouldn't let her. She was at the airport and they
wouldn't let her on the plane. I had a real long letter writing campaign because I used to
work for CP Airlines and I knew some of the people involved and I wrote to them. We had a
long, hard struggle.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
There was something I heard once, I haven't chased it down, but Clare Miller, he was a vet
in Kitchener and ran a travel agency, and at one point I had heard or seen a very quick
reference that Air Canada had provided him with funding to travel and check out the air
planes.

Tony Mann:
Yes, as I understand it. He would find out where there were good places to go with his
chair.

Lucy DeLuca:
He had a lot of documentation on places that you could go. And there's a girl in Toronto,
Cindy Noble, she does a lot of that. She gives information to travel agencies so that they
can check when they have a person call in or they want to go somewhere. Boats, planes,
trains, you name it.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
I think he was doing this in '47.

Lucy DeLuca:
Yes, he was one of the first.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
But when you were working here, how much would you know about what was happening in
Toronto? Like with Dr. Jousse or John Counsell. Or would you be doing things here alone
and they would do things alone?

Tony Mann:
No, we would get together. I always stayed several days in Toronto after annual meetings.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
And would you meet every year?

Tony Mann:
Yes, that's right.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
And would you go to?

Mildred Mann:
Sometimes.

Lucy DeLuca:
They had Executive Directors meetings every year.

Mildred Mann:
There was always contact throughout the year, by mail, by phone.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
So, though it was in different regions, you, as a whole, knew what each other was doing?

Tony Mann:
All together, until recently.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
All those early directors, the heads of each of those divisions, they were all veterans?

Tony Mann:
Most of them, I guess.

Mildred Mann:
At one time Tony had to cover Alberta, Saskatchewan and Thunder Bay.

Tony Mann:
And going through there, there was no problem with the plane.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Do you think it was important that you were veterans?

Tony Mann:
I don't know. It was probably a good idea because it was easier to get things done.

Mildred Mann:
Actually, I think the government has been very kind to the veterans. They did everything
they could to help them get established. And really it was the veterans who decided that
we had to open up some channels for civilians who were usually tucked away in some corner
of the house, if they were lucky. So the Department of Veterans Affairs were very
reluctant to have the civilians come to their hospitals to start their rehabilitation program.
But eventually they were won over. And that's how the Association evolved, was to try some
of the things they had received with the civilians. Lucy was one of the first to come
through.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Did you know at Deer Lodge, a Mrs Nightingale from Thunder Bay?

Mildred Mann:
Edna, yes. I remember her.

Lucy DeLuca:
Did you read her letter in the newest Caliper?

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
I interviewed her a few months ago in Thunder Bay.

Tony Mann:
Did you?

Lucy DeLuca:
She's got a letter in the newest Caliper. She thinks she's the oldest living paraplegic
and she wanted to know if there was anybody else across the country. And her letter's in
Caliper asking if there's anyone else.

Mildred Mann:
How old is she now?

Lucy DeLuca:
Well, she was 31 in 1942, and that would make her what now? ...[end of tape 1] You know
Mary McGowan, they are asking her to come to our annual meeting because they're quite sure
that Mary's the oldest living paraplegic.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
And would she have had rehabilitation? When would she have been injured?

Lucy DeLuca:
She was polio. She didn't have the rehabilitation. They bad municipal hospitals. But the
rehabilitation she bad was there.

Mildred Mann:
Being a polio, she wouldn't have the same kind of difficulty as a spinal cord injury.

Tony Mann:
Deer Lodge was the only place people with spinal cord injuries could go for help.

Lucy DeLuca:
That's where I went. It's the only place I could go, there was nowhere else.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
I think that was the same across Canada. The veterans centres were the only place.

Lucy DeLuca:
And it was because of the vets saying these people had to go somewhere that we were
allowed in. But there was a quota, wasn't there Tony? Only so many civilians.

Tony Mann:
Yes, that's right.

Mildred Mann:
And I think that at one point, your treatment charges had to be taken on by an agency, a
Rotary group or a Kinsmen group and any of the braces or crutches, that had to be paid
for. I don't know when the provincial health care took that over, but they had to take it
over eventually. So that eliminated the various fundraising groups.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Can I just ask, Mildred, how long did you work as a physiotherapist?

Mildred Mann:
It feels like a hundred years. I did roughly about two years and then I went on to
Minnesota, where I did some post-graduate work in polio with Sister Kenney and also with
the University of Minnesota. I spent a number of years there with their rehabilitation
department. And I did some work in Milwaukee with Dr. Blount, an orthopaedic surgeon. When
I returned to Winnipeg, I got back into physio because of the polio epidemic. So I worked
for a number of years following that. And then I helped to establish the School of Physio
here at the University of Manitoba. And then worked for a couple of years supervising
students in the various hospitals. And then Tony wasn't very helpful.

Tony Mann:
I wasn't?

Mildred Mann:
Well, no. And when the children came along, I had to quit the job. So that was that.

Tony Mann:
I wasn't enough of a "help" with the children.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
And when you adopted, was that because you weren't supposed to work in those days, or was
that an issue?

Mildred Mann:
It wasn't a matter of you're not supposing to work, it was more of an option, I think. You
certainly could if you could handle things. But Tony was never home and was not willing to
give that time.

Tony Mann:
I was out working and so on.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
So you would have seen a lot of changes in physiotherapy.

Mildred Mann:
Oh yes.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
When you were first at Deer Lodge, was there any occupational therapy there?

Mildred Mann:
Yes.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
And what kind of things would they be doing?

Mildred Mann:
I think Deer Lodge had a really great department. The occupational therapy they were doing
was not just weaving baskets and making use of time. All their exercise routines were
based on the need of the patient to exercise a certain affected part through some building
activity or painting activity. But it was always geared to their particular need. And that
was established very early on.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
That would be quite different from other departments.

Mildred Mann:
Well, many of the departments that I had seen, I would almost say quite time-wasting but
that wouldn't be fair. But it was really leisurely. It really wasn't geared to any active
therapy.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
And you had talked earlier, about going out in the beginning, going out to the restaurant,
going out to the bars, going out into the community. Did the physios do that with the
vets?

Mildred Mann:
No, the OT's were primarily concerned with arranging those activities.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
The reason I ask, because at LyndhQTSt they talk about the physios doing that because they
didn't have any OT's at Lyndhurst. Dr. Jousse was against that because he didn't want them
wasting time on crafts.

Mildred Mann:
The OT's established bowling, picnics, theatre, concerts. That was really their I
recreational activities.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Now I've kept you a long time. But is there anything I haven't asked that you think is
important that I know about.

Tony Mann:
I want to say something about 1010 Sinclair, a housing complex for disabled persons. 1010
Sinclair was developed as an interim housing arrangement for disabled persons. These
persons had usually started their rehab in hospital and were ready to move out into the
community. At 1010 they are encouraged to try there own ways to do every day living
chores. But, if needed, they are taught various life skills, e.g. cooking, cleaning. For
severely disabled, there are ways of teaching electronic means to open doors, operate
telephones, tv's, etc. And from 1010, there has been the progression to Fokus Units, and
more recently to Cluster units, for quadriplegics, i.e. even more severe disabilities.

Lucy DeLuca:
Have you read about our project here at 1010 Sinclair. It's a housing complex. It's like
an interim place. You leave the hospital and go there, be assessed on how your skills are
on independent living. And then from these premises, hopefully you'll go out into the
community, into an apartment, self-contained or whatever. Also from that they've developed
Fokus Units, and recently a Cluster unit -all to do with housing for severely disabled
persons.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
No, you tell me about them.

Lucy DeLuca:
Fokus units are a concept that came out of Sweden where 8 or 10 disabled persons lived in
an apartment complex. And they have several persons that look after their needs with one
coordinator. They would be there in the morning to get them out of bed, get them ready,
get them dressed. And then the paraplegic, disabled, person would go about their daily
activity and they would be ~ed again in the evening to retire. These persons would also be
available for emergency needs. But these 8 or 10 persons in this 12 or 14-storey apartment
complex work out their own needs. They work out the scheduling so the person who helps
them is there, like Joe Blow has them at 8; Paul at 8:30, they work that out. They're also
there if there's an emergency so that if something happens and you need their assistance,
they're available at any time. Actually they're all independent. They're able to function
in their own apartment. They make their own arrangements if they need the home care
services which are another aspect of it. But they can live in the community as they know
they have support services if needed. So from 1010 Sinclair, maybe 6 or 8 of them that
were at a certain level, are ready to move out in the community, to an organized Fok us
Units. I think they're up to Fokus # 4 or 5.

Tony Mann:
Five, now.

Lucy DeLuca:
And also from that, those are for people like paras who can do their own needs. Now from
the Fokus units, they have what they call "Cluster" units. And it's for more severely
disabled, like quadriplegics, who have still gone out to either an apartment complex or a
group home, but they need more services. But from 1010, they would start there, work out
their needs, they have to make their needs known to the Department of Health. They have to
make a case for it. And they've done very well. It's been a very learning, very rewarding
experience for the people that started 1010, of which Tony was one of them, as well as
Alan Simpson, who was also there from the beginning.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
I'm actually going to interview him this summer.

Lucy DeLuca:
Next week they're having a roast for him.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
So this was '75?

Lucy DeLuca:
Yes, 1975. 1010 was one of the first housing units of this ilk, but I think there are
other ones now throughout Canada, but the premise started here.

Mildred Mann:
The staff at 1010 is important.

Lucy DeLuca:
Extremely. While they are there, they teach the individual person living skills, they
teach all the skills, management skills. They have a physiotherapist, an occupational
therapist.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Are you still involved with this?

Tony Mann:
Not anymore, no.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
But you' re an honorary part of it?

Tony Mann:
I guess so.

Mildred Mann:
We owned that property for one day. And I was shocked when the tax assessor came by.

Lucy DeLuca:
And that was quite the thing. The man who owned the property donated it to CPA. We had a
gentleman on our board at that time, Leon Mitchell, and Leon knew the man who was part of
the ownership and it was through their efforts that they donated this property to get this
started, because the cost of property was insane. You couldn't even look at it now.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
One thing, when I looked in Toronto at what was happening, John Counsell was Walter
Gordon's brother-in-law, and be seemed to have a lot of connections with political
leaders.

Tony Mann:
That's how he worked things out really. Conn Smythe was also very instrumental in Toronto.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Well, he was a WWil veteran himself, and I understood had been to Basingstoke.

Tony Mann:
Yes.

Mildred Mann:
Well, I think that almost any group is like this. If you have political friends, you have
a sympathetic ear, even today.

Mary Tremblay, Ph.D.:
Thank you very much. [end of tape]

Edited November 16, 1995